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on this episode of skeptic Oh guest host

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dr. rich Grego brings us interviews from

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the 2012 psychology Association

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conference in orlando okay where should

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we go neck probably because you said we

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want to keep crypt nur to the end we

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should probably play Robert al me to

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write a linear yeah ok here goes that

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clip Aristotle acclaimed his a

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philosophical that humans would distinct

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from animals in that humans were

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rational but but the animals were

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non-rational because they didn't show an

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understanding of means to end

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relationship right and evidenced in the

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fact that they didn't use tools and Jane

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Goodall conclusively I think refuted

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that by yeah on the camera with

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everybody saw the animals using their

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their tools that they've been created I

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also love the Jane Goodall reference I

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think it really brought home this idea

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that science can't really be pinned down

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the way that scientism often does and

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his point is just obvious that jane

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goodall's videos changed science change

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the scientific consensus not in a way

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that we normally think of as testable or

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anything like that but just by making it

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self-evident yeah yeah absolutely um and

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that's again I suppose happened over and

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over again in in science so that they're

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trying to define as I make a claim

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somehow that the status of current

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science is this all-encompassing total

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description of weight the level of the

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way reality must be is if you look at

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the history of science sort of an

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obviously unfounded claim stay with us

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welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers bankers and their critics

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i'm your host Alex Karras and on this

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episode we have a series of very

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interesting interviews from the American

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psychology Association conference

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brought to us by dr. rich Greg oh

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there's some really great material here

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that rich has brought us and there's a

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lot of material i asked rich to condense

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it down but I've also asked him to come

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on after each clip to join me in a

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little bit of a discussion I think it's

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pretty self-explanatory let's get right

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to my dialogue with dr. rich Greco today

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we welcome dr. Richard grego back to

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skeptic Oh rich is a philosophy

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professor at Florida State College and

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as jumped in here as a guest host in the

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past here on skeptic oh he's here today

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to bring us some very interesting

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interviews he did while covering the

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American Psychological Association

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conference in orlando florida here in

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2012 so rich welcome back to skeptic oh

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thanks for joining me Thanks act was

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great to be back well we've had this

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conversation by email on a couple of

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phone calls as you proposed this idea

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that hey I'm here and I'm interested in

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attending these conferences how about

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covering them for skeptic oh and I

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thought that was just a great idea so I

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first have to thank you very much for

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bringing us these interviews and we also

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have to tell folks that you also covered

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for us the parapsychology Association

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conference in Durham North Carolina and

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those interviews are going to be coming

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up in a future episode so again thanks

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for doing this sure I thought it was

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just the kind of thing that the

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skeptical constituency would find

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interesting and appreciates oh

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absolutely i love the way we're going to

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be able to show folks some different

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views from both within the psychology

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community but also within the

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parapsychology community so it gives us

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a good lay of the land in terms of where

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some of these ideas are going among

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intellectuals and professionals in this

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way yeah i agree and i was i was happy

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to see that they at least did have some

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presentations there this one in

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particular that address

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the sort of concerns regarding

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consciousness studies that at least the

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same sort of concerns that the

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parapsychological community is

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interested in as well and I thought that

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that's a promising development in the

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psychological community right so rich

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tell us first about the APA conference

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in general for folks who don't know

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about it what is it how big is it who is

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there how many you know different panels

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and presentations are there that kind of

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thing okay well it is you can imagine

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it's one of the it's the scholarly

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presentation of that community of the

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psychological communities on sort of

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intellectual elite and and and are and

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you know and trends within the in

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scholarly trends within the field it's a

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huge conference on that's national and

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really international in scope and it

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takes place every year over the course

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of several days before the first one I

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attended that's not my sort of academic

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discipline in particular but I was

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interested in this presentation and a

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few others and there are thousands of

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people there on they hold at did this

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one they held at the Orlando conference

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center which is you can imagine is a

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huge conference center so it's a huge

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professional meeting that encompasses

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the you know that encompasses the

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interests and the research that the

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entire community is involved in so great

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in this particular panel that you

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focused on tell us about that yeah well

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be that the idea kind of for this

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project that you and I had discussed

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arose when a very alert former student

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of mine informed me that a panel of

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impressive scholars on the topic of and

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this is the title of the panel exploring

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the plural frontiers of the mind brain

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relationship which is also incidentally

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the title of an excellent book that has

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just come out and that was the focal

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point for this this panel on there

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although the people who presented on it

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are all contributors to this book that

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has recently come out and it's this

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topic obviously exploring the frontiers

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of the mind brain relationship is one

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is you know that we did a little one

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that's of concern to people that

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skeptical and in these scholars are

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conducting the kind of research that

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points to the possibility of

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particularly non-materialistic

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conceptions of consciousness I thought

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that it would be exactly the kind of

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thing and speaking with the people there

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would be exactly the kind of topic that

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the you know the skeptical would be

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interested in exploring so great so rich

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one at UT up the first to interview

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which clip are we going to play first

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and by the way I should mention the

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people we rich has brought us three

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interviews each one about 11 minutes

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long so we're going to he's going to

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introduce each and then we'll have a

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very brief little discussion about it

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afterwards and then we'll get to the

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next one so which one should we do first

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rich um I mean I guess we might want to

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end with Stanley Crippler if he's the

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most controversial maybe if we start

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with the dual interview I conducted with

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dr. Alexander moreira Almeida and dr.

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Erland er haraldson and might be more

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the most appropriate okay and tell us

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real quickly about these two folks oh

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sure it well um dr. Alexander moreira

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Almeida PhD MD is a psychiatrist and

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psychologist I guess is his other field

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with the University of Brazil de flora I

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believe if my Brazilian my Portuguese is

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rusty forgive me on and he is he don't

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he's done a lot of consciousness

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consciousness research in many venues

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over the years he's widely published on

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and then of course dr. Erland ER

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haraldson is a past guest i believe on

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skeptical and i think you interview them

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on and he is a psychology professor at

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the university of iceland and they

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presented it on this panel respectively

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on the topics of sort of a history of

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mediumship in Western science on that

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was dr. moreira Almeida and then dr.

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Harrelson presented with his researches

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recent research on cases of

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reincarnation and both of them focused

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their discussions on the issue of how

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what the implications of this research

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is for

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conceptions of what consciousness is

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especially particularly in relation to

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the body in the physical great it sums

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it up very nicely i'm going to play that

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interview first I have to just mention

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i'm pretty sure it was Andy Poquette who

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interviewed also bear still very

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interesting let's play that interview

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and then we'll be back to talk about it

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the end of materialism is a term that

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has gone beyond philosophical

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speculation to gain some evidential

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currency of weight what does the general

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trend of your research your respective

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research findings reveal about the

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relationship between the mind and the

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brain or if you want to be more abstract

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than met at the mental and physical I

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guess for for not only for first for the

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field of psychology but maybe for the

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fields of philosophy and the other

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social and behavioral sciences and maybe

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for the culture cultural paradigm in

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general um I think the actually that's

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exactly what do we are in the book as a

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whole I think that the whole evidence

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points that matter or brain cannot

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explain everything of course it's

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important to of course we need to take

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most a ratio all the studies about brain

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and things like that but I think the

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evidence points that there is something

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beyond the brain that in mind is related

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to the brain but not as I produced by

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the brain that it can in some sense act

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and survive 2222 brain exists beyond the

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brain I think this disease it has become

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very clear when we study the whole range

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of gentleman of course some people can

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accept that and people are endowed some

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people will never accept that but I

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think that this is at least a reasonable

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working hypothesis I think it should be

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allowed as I truly scientific spirit

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because I think a truly scientific

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spirit should be open-minded and rivers

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at the same time this is what makes good

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so in good science we should allow

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different better than candidates

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compared we should allow this I think

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it's okay that we have reduced in this

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paradigm working and try to show what

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they are able to explain and produce and

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at the same time I think it should be

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allowed a non-reducing is two views of

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mind also work present their data and

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engage in this good scientific

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discussion and I assume you'd say the

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implications for the receptivity to this

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non reductionist view of mind or what

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could possibly be tremendous I'm

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thinking of your practice in general

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what you do in clinical practice I mean

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you supervise correct you were just

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telling ya psychiatry a student scrip I

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would thinking just inhale in that

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application alone the receptivity to the

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notion that consciousness is more than

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just the brain it would be huge I think

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the one of them the results that makes

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people so passionate involved in against

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and for these ideas and because I

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discussed the human nature that's the

277
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point is it's a very deep question we

278
00:12:01,370 --> 00:11:58,980
are is a big question we I discussion

279
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the human nature we are discussing who

280
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we are yeah so so exactly i think when

281
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we believe when we had evidence that we

282
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are just the product of our brain

283
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activity or that we are something beyond

284
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that it has huge implications for our

285
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understanding of ourselves for our lives

286
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and also for for therapeutic

287
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e-government self yeah any any

288
00:12:32,950 --> 00:12:29,000
philosophical reflections be wrong

289
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I almost forgot me oh yeah I did the

290
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:35,810
implications of the notion that material

291
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the end of materialism with regard to

292
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consciousness or the field of psychology

293
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for instance I I do not see any and the

294
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material lesson forthcoming when you

295
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happy yeah because of that they sort of

296
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materialism hussam very strong points

297
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for us sure but there are some findings

298
00:13:07,330 --> 00:13:04,450
are some facts that have come through

299
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articulated there in the 19th century

300
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:11,960
and also in in this century or Los

301
00:13:19,510 --> 00:13:16,370
Angeles a yeah that are not hard to not

302
00:13:22,060 --> 00:13:19,520
easy to explain in a materialistic way

303
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:22,070
sure and then a cost another mediumistic

304
00:13:28,810 --> 00:13:24,530
phenomena but we already had in the late

305
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:28,820
19th century then we have the phenomena

306
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:32,810
of a very psychic phenomena like the

307
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happenings of the death and so on right

308
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then we started to study here death

309
00:13:43,129 --> 00:13:41,750
experiences or a lotta part of the last

310
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century and

311
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about that time we also started to study

312
00:13:53,259 --> 00:13:49,980
their the cases of the reincarnation

313
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type shoes on now there is some

314
00:14:02,929 --> 00:13:58,439
empirical facts right wits are hard to

315
00:14:06,909 --> 00:14:02,939
explain in the materialistic way and the

316
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:06,919
soul nowadays earlier we only had rarely

317
00:14:15,499 --> 00:14:10,410
religion yeah yeah that pointed to

318
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:15,509
something beyond the material yeah but

319
00:14:26,889 --> 00:14:19,290
now we have some some facts yeah through

320
00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:26,899
research that point to that materialism

321
00:14:39,850 --> 00:14:37,910
real for everything right and has its

322
00:14:44,139 --> 00:14:39,860
weaknesses

323
00:14:47,380 --> 00:14:44,149
and I think if we take a philosophical

324
00:14:49,690 --> 00:14:47,390
and historical perspective even if he

325
00:14:52,540 --> 00:14:49,700
mainly if you we analyzed the most

326
00:14:54,069 --> 00:14:52,550
recent studies about science and

327
00:14:57,009 --> 00:14:54,079
religion the history of science and

328
00:14:59,800 --> 00:14:57,019
religion there are very good books

329
00:15:02,110 --> 00:14:59,810
recent published on this by Harvard

330
00:15:05,769 --> 00:15:02,120
University Oxford University and

331
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:05,779
Cambridge University and so on and most

332
00:15:12,009 --> 00:15:08,050
of these books should have shown that

333
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:12,019
actually they met the analysis of the

334
00:15:17,130 --> 00:15:14,810
material world in addiction to a

335
00:15:20,050 --> 00:15:17,140
non-material perspective of the world

336
00:15:23,019 --> 00:15:20,060
was the norm throughout human history

337
00:15:25,769 --> 00:15:23,029
and throughout history of human thinking

338
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:25,779
yeah philosophy and science and so on a

339
00:15:31,060 --> 00:15:28,570
different from what we usually believe

340
00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:31,070
even even in the Scientific Revolution

341
00:15:38,860 --> 00:15:36,320
is 16th century 18th century most of

342
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:38,870
scientists took for granted the

343
00:15:44,769 --> 00:15:41,930
existence of a no material person real

344
00:15:46,930 --> 00:15:44,779
men do in the universe most scientists

345
00:15:51,490 --> 00:15:46,940
like Copernicus like Kepler Galileo

346
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:51,500
Newton Francis Bacon all of the founders

347
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:54,110
of modern science you look for Greta the

348
00:15:58,930 --> 00:15:57,170
enormity of respect of the universe so

349
00:16:02,019 --> 00:15:58,940
if we analyze in a very broad

350
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:02,029
perspective take the big picture this

351
00:16:07,319 --> 00:16:04,850
more edition is better list view is a

352
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:07,329
day ology rigid it's an ideology that

353
00:16:13,569 --> 00:16:10,970
was became strong actually basically in

354
00:16:18,579 --> 00:16:13,579
the middle of 19th century here and it

355
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:18,589
has become it has faced some problems

356
00:16:22,990 --> 00:16:20,959
nowadays so when we take the bigger

357
00:16:25,780 --> 00:16:23,000
picture actually smaller edition is the

358
00:16:28,090 --> 00:16:25,790
views of the universe predominate based

359
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:28,100
for one century us or a bit more than

360
00:16:34,329 --> 00:16:31,910
this so so it's not natural to science

361
00:16:35,949 --> 00:16:34,339
to take a materialist reduce honest

362
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:35,959
review of nice actually most of the

363
00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:38,930
scientists in the in the history I had

364
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:41,870
not taken this perspective I think to to

365
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:43,970
analyze this it's important as I told

366
00:16:48,550 --> 00:16:45,890
you as we have discussed the previously

367
00:16:49,530 --> 00:16:48,560
it is a metaphysical sumption it's okay

368
00:16:52,290 --> 00:16:49,540
to have the

369
00:16:54,660 --> 00:16:52,300
but this wrong to assume that's to be a

370
00:16:56,850 --> 00:16:54,670
good scientist you need to assume these

371
00:16:59,310 --> 00:16:56,860
are the fiercest actions because most of

372
00:17:01,829 --> 00:16:59,320
the good science that were the founders

373
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:01,839
of the Desai's as a whole they had not

374
00:17:08,579 --> 00:17:05,530
accepted this yeah so I think we need to

375
00:17:10,140 --> 00:17:08,589
take in consideration all the things

376
00:17:13,020 --> 00:17:10,150
that we know about the material world of

377
00:17:16,110 --> 00:17:13,030
course at the social aspect and so on

378
00:17:18,929 --> 00:17:16,120
biological and so on but the idea of

379
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:18,939
taking consideration on material aspect

380
00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:21,610
of the universe we are just try to add

381
00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:25,329
another thing to help to explain the

382
00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:28,720
whole range of things that happen in the

383
00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:32,500
universe and I asked it as a closing

384
00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:34,780
question for each of you just um to

385
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:37,809
answer em not just the scientists or

386
00:17:44,610 --> 00:17:40,240
professionals but as whole people gut

387
00:17:46,740 --> 00:17:44,620
feeling through for something if a kid

388
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:46,750
asks you what's going to happen to me

389
00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:48,970
when I die or with somebody as

390
00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:50,799
simple-minded as me just ask you what

391
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:52,720
what is your gut feeling about what is

392
00:18:00,710 --> 00:17:55,450
consciousness what are we essentially

393
00:18:04,380 --> 00:18:00,720
what would your answer be you guys take

394
00:18:05,820 --> 00:18:04,390
what is after all you know the upshot of

395
00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:05,830
all the research you've done in the

396
00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:07,720
experiences you've had way like it is

397
00:18:13,710 --> 00:18:11,080
anything we are said cuz we really come

398
00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:13,720
to find that's just what we are or what

399
00:18:21,659 --> 00:18:16,960
we think we are yeah are aware that's

400
00:18:26,460 --> 00:18:21,669
done that's consciousness and but still

401
00:18:29,460 --> 00:18:26,470
it also it is a very sort of fluctuating

402
00:18:31,779 --> 00:18:29,470
thing every night we sleep for eight

403
00:18:34,149 --> 00:18:31,789
hours we don't know where we are

404
00:18:36,609 --> 00:18:34,159
we have no awareness at least when we

405
00:18:39,639 --> 00:18:36,619
wake up we have not yet yeah but maybe

406
00:18:47,919 --> 00:18:39,649
there is just our memory doesn't

407
00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:47,929
remember yes so okay no fair enough I

408
00:18:53,649 --> 00:18:51,710
don't ever answer that question I think

409
00:18:55,239 --> 00:18:53,659
that the first of all there are several

410
00:18:57,369 --> 00:18:55,249
different definition fetish

411
00:19:01,299 --> 00:18:57,379
consciousness if you define it has the

412
00:19:03,849 --> 00:19:01,309
first person perspective yeah I think

413
00:19:07,450 --> 00:19:03,859
basically that of course we need to

414
00:19:09,549 --> 00:19:07,460
learn a lot of I yet we needed to learn

415
00:19:12,099 --> 00:19:09,559
a lot to need to do much more research

416
00:19:14,409 --> 00:19:12,109
and reflection on this but at least i

417
00:19:17,219 --> 00:19:14,419
think that the empirical evidence

418
00:19:20,649 --> 00:19:17,229
available points that this first-person

419
00:19:23,769 --> 00:19:20,659
perspective is not just the product of

420
00:19:25,869 --> 00:19:23,779
the brain that it can exist beyond the

421
00:19:27,789 --> 00:19:25,879
brain i think we have reasonable

422
00:19:29,589 --> 00:19:27,799
evidence to think on this but of course

423
00:19:31,869 --> 00:19:29,599
we need to work more on these to test

424
00:19:35,349 --> 00:19:31,879
these hypotheses and to advance our

425
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:35,359
understanding and in a very open mind

426
00:19:39,249 --> 00:19:37,369
than the rigorous way i think that's the

427
00:19:41,289 --> 00:19:39,259
point and i think this is the importance

428
00:19:43,869 --> 00:19:41,299
of discussing this in a high level

429
00:19:45,609 --> 00:19:43,879
academic environment because if you

430
00:19:47,349 --> 00:19:45,619
would not allow this to be discussed in

431
00:19:49,299 --> 00:19:47,359
higher academic environment you to be

432
00:19:51,820 --> 00:19:49,309
discussed in a low intellectual

433
00:19:54,399 --> 00:19:51,830
environment that would not make an

434
00:19:56,289 --> 00:19:54,409
advance and good advance so i think we

435
00:19:59,739 --> 00:19:56,299
need exactly discussed is to have people

436
00:20:02,320 --> 00:19:59,749
that will that would like to engage in a

437
00:20:04,749 --> 00:20:02,330
good discussion to point the limitations

438
00:20:08,379 --> 00:20:04,759
to discuss how to move the things

439
00:20:10,989 --> 00:20:08,389
forward so which I'm really glad we play

440
00:20:13,719 --> 00:20:10,999
that clip first because I think here are

441
00:20:16,539 --> 00:20:13,729
two researchers scientists you just come

442
00:20:20,019 --> 00:20:16,549
out pretty directly and say hey we need

443
00:20:23,109 --> 00:20:20,029
to get with the program and acknowledge

444
00:20:25,089 --> 00:20:23,119
that this idea of materialism doesn't

445
00:20:27,639 --> 00:20:25,099
really fit the data that was my takeaway

446
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:27,649
from it what how about you for me there

447
00:20:32,619 --> 00:20:30,080
were three big sort of issues that they

448
00:20:34,539 --> 00:20:32,629
they examine you know really quickly and

449
00:20:36,129 --> 00:20:34,549
the first would have been that you know

450
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:36,139
if you look at the history of

451
00:20:40,060 --> 00:20:38,720
reincarnation and mediumship in the west

452
00:20:42,999 --> 00:20:40,070
from a historical as well as a

453
00:20:44,589 --> 00:20:43,009
scientific perspective that attempts to

454
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:44,599
account for either mediumship or

455
00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:45,690
consciousness in terms

456
00:20:50,149 --> 00:20:48,000
reductive materialist science really

457
00:20:52,909 --> 00:20:50,159
hasn't just hasn't succeeded in the last

458
00:20:56,269 --> 00:20:52,919
300 years or even made any substantial

459
00:20:59,019 --> 00:20:56,279
progress on other than of course beyond

460
00:21:02,389 --> 00:20:59,029
you know developing more sophisticated

461
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:02,399
sort of technical descriptions of neural

462
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:04,559
processes and things like that but in

463
00:21:08,450 --> 00:21:06,720
terms of really explaining consciousness

464
00:21:11,659 --> 00:21:08,460
it hasn't been successful and then I

465
00:21:14,629 --> 00:21:11,669
mean secondly i'd say that the reductive

466
00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:14,639
materialist explanations for this kind

467
00:21:18,529 --> 00:21:16,710
of phenomenon in particular and for

468
00:21:22,190 --> 00:21:18,539
consciousness experiences generally are

469
00:21:26,539 --> 00:21:22,200
a historical aberration even in science

470
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:26,549
as i think dr. moreira pointed out in

471
00:21:31,399 --> 00:21:29,250
this in this clip of pretty Abele that

472
00:21:33,919 --> 00:21:31,409
the most scientists throughout the

473
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:33,929
history of the West haven't themselves

474
00:21:38,419 --> 00:21:35,850
can find their conception of

475
00:21:40,399 --> 00:21:38,429
consciousness to a materialist paradigm

476
00:21:46,519 --> 00:21:40,409
and then you know sort of finally an

477
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:46,529
explanation for this kind of stuff you

478
00:21:50,930 --> 00:21:48,450
know in terms of sigh or disconnect

479
00:21:53,690 --> 00:21:50,940
spirits is really a pause plausible

480
00:21:55,759 --> 00:21:53,700
scientific hypothesis that should be

481
00:21:58,490 --> 00:21:55,769
taken seriously so that's what I took

482
00:21:59,749 --> 00:21:58,500
away from it anyway great okay where

483
00:22:01,700 --> 00:21:59,759
should we go next what should we play

484
00:22:03,619 --> 00:22:01,710
next probably because I said we want to

485
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:03,629
keep krypter to the end because you

486
00:22:09,740 --> 00:22:05,850
gotta play Robert Almeida right I'll

487
00:22:11,210 --> 00:22:09,750
manator yeah ok here goes that clip we

488
00:22:14,049 --> 00:22:11,220
the materialist explanation for

489
00:22:17,149 --> 00:22:14,059
consciousness is that it is either a

490
00:22:19,580 --> 00:22:17,159
completely identical to brain States

491
00:22:21,710 --> 00:22:19,590
yeah that's the Lord that is yeah or

492
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:21,720
that it's a it's in some weird sense I

493
00:22:25,940 --> 00:22:23,610
wanted to talk about with me with you a

494
00:22:28,009 --> 00:22:25,950
little bit about that

495
00:22:29,330 --> 00:22:28,019
the sort of discrepancies in this but

496
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:29,340
the other one is that the other

497
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:33,090
explanation would be that it's sort of

498
00:22:37,129 --> 00:22:35,250
the non reductive materialists say that

499
00:22:39,529 --> 00:22:37,139
well you can't just say that there there

500
00:22:41,450 --> 00:22:39,539
there only that the mental states are

501
00:22:44,629 --> 00:22:41,460
only brain States there's something else

502
00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:44,639
but they still supervene on physical

503
00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:47,039
brain states that there's something else

504
00:22:52,820 --> 00:22:49,190
but but they but they're they're

505
00:22:54,769 --> 00:22:52,830
contingent on brain States right and and

506
00:22:58,519 --> 00:22:54,779
and substance duelists of course or

507
00:23:01,669 --> 00:22:58,529
Cartesian duelists say that the mental

508
00:23:03,889 --> 00:23:01,679
is a property that is just non-fiscal

509
00:23:07,669 --> 00:23:03,899
correct and that and that is that is

510
00:23:10,970 --> 00:23:07,679
what you're asserting yes that there are

511
00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:10,980
things in the world that are not

512
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:13,860
physical objects that are causal agents

513
00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:17,010
interacting with bodies and they seem to

514
00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:21,110
be the repository of these what you mean

515
00:23:29,299 --> 00:23:23,840
certain memories that constitute the

516
00:23:31,070 --> 00:23:29,309
identity of these people and you I don't

517
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:31,080
know what else to say that seems to be

518
00:23:37,399 --> 00:23:34,010
or they and you advance these five

519
00:23:39,740 --> 00:23:37,409
materialists objections it was a fine

520
00:23:41,450 --> 00:23:39,750
man I think a chance in the talk right

521
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:41,460
explain so maybe I could do some of it

522
00:23:46,639 --> 00:23:44,610
yes sure first is the first is that the

523
00:23:49,159 --> 00:23:46,649
the first one you get typically from

524
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:49,169
science is that belief in the existence

525
00:23:59,420 --> 00:23:54,450
of Cartesian immaterial substances is

526
00:24:04,700 --> 00:23:59,430
simply not testable or confirmable right

527
00:24:08,170 --> 00:24:04,710
and what they then say is yeah therefore

528
00:24:12,170 --> 00:24:08,180
belief and the ghost in the machine is

529
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:12,180
not a scientific question it has to fall

530
00:24:18,410 --> 00:24:15,170
in the philosophy or religions are

531
00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:18,420
superstition yeah now that's interesting

532
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:22,110
because you could say I mean I mean I

533
00:24:26,150 --> 00:24:23,490
will say in a minute you know it is

534
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:26,160
quite testable yeah but but even if it

535
00:24:31,820 --> 00:24:30,090
weren't testable suppose the they seem

536
00:24:35,890 --> 00:24:31,830
to feel that once you put something in

537
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:35,900
the category of philosophy or

538
00:24:41,090 --> 00:24:38,310
superstition of religion that's the kiss

539
00:24:44,150 --> 00:24:41,100
of death yeah because after all we all

540
00:24:46,250 --> 00:24:44,160
know that philosophers we all know it's

541
00:24:48,530 --> 00:24:46,260
not scientific game but it's also that

542
00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:48,540
we all know that philosophers have never

543
00:24:54,260 --> 00:24:50,310
agreed substantially so the argument

544
00:24:56,810 --> 00:24:54,270
goes yes abstention anything and argue

545
00:24:59,180 --> 00:24:56,820
that science is in the same Simons's

546
00:25:01,700 --> 00:24:59,190
well well I argue the philosopher's do

547
00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:01,710
agree more than people think we don't we

548
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:04,830
nobody believes anymore that I could be

549
00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:06,810
the only person in the world right and

550
00:25:13,710 --> 00:25:09,240
that was refuted conclusively but it

551
00:25:18,430 --> 00:25:16,240
experiments of any sort that was

552
00:25:20,770 --> 00:25:18,440
actually it was the case there's this

553
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:20,780
woman named Christine led Franklin who

554
00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:24,290
wrote who wrote to Bertrand Russell

555
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:26,720
after Russell had actually defended this

556
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:28,490
claim that he was the only person in the

557
00:25:32,530 --> 00:25:30,650
world yeah she wrote and said I agree

558
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:32,540
with you professor Russell I think it

559
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:34,370
was a wonderful fine argument and I too

560
00:25:38,740 --> 00:25:37,250
am I solipsist yeah Russell thought she

561
00:25:40,330 --> 00:25:38,750
would didn't she made some sort of a

562
00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:40,340
mistake but I think she must have been a

563
00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:42,320
very clever lady saw ops ISM of course

564
00:25:46,690 --> 00:25:44,480
being the view that I'm the only person

565
00:25:49,300 --> 00:25:46,700
I world and of course it couldn't be

566
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:49,310
true yeah if I'm the only print the

567
00:25:55,390 --> 00:25:51,440
argument makes everybody the only person

568
00:25:57,220 --> 00:25:55,400
in the world sure so she she refuted

569
00:26:00,370 --> 00:25:57,230
that never come back I haven't seen

570
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:00,380
anybody take it seriously yeah so

571
00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:02,930
there's a philosophical position i got

572
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:05,600
refuted aristotle acclaimed his a

573
00:26:11,220 --> 00:26:07,730
philosophical blood humans with distinct

574
00:26:16,050 --> 00:26:11,230
from animals in that humans were

575
00:26:21,790 --> 00:26:16,060
rational but but the animals were

576
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:21,800
non-rational because they didn't show an

577
00:26:27,610 --> 00:26:23,450
understanding of means to end

578
00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:27,620
relationship right and that they

579
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:29,390
couldn't and evidenced in the fact that

580
00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:32,330
they didn't use tools yeah whereas they

581
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:33,710
even said things like if you get me a

582
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:35,360
horse that could add up a column of

583
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:39,890
figures or so on yeah sure yeah so so

584
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:41,810
I'm so that theory and Jane Goodall

585
00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:43,850
compulsively I think refuted that by

586
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:46,130
yeah on the camera with everybody saw

587
00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:49,130
the animals using their the tools that

588
00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:53,120
they've created so on the whole I guess

589
00:26:59,020 --> 00:26:56,750
then the there was another argument to

590
00:27:02,109 --> 00:26:59,030
that there were a lot of them left

591
00:27:04,239 --> 00:27:02,119
blossoms agreed i'm not sure

592
00:27:06,039 --> 00:27:04,249
when Hume said there's no idea for which

593
00:27:12,909 --> 00:27:06,049
is not a corresponding impression of

594
00:27:15,429 --> 00:27:12,919
sense except one I mean people said look

595
00:27:18,489 --> 00:27:15,439
that's a counterexample to the that

596
00:27:20,139 --> 00:27:18,499
important position and nobody believes

597
00:27:22,899 --> 00:27:20,149
it anymore I mean you never get an

598
00:27:24,759 --> 00:27:22,909
impression of a chill we've gone a

599
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:24,769
thousand sided figure but they are there

600
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:28,129
and you know what it means and so in

601
00:27:35,829 --> 00:27:30,369
button fly and the scientist who they

602
00:27:37,239 --> 00:27:35,839
were emphasize their the successes yes

603
00:27:39,309 --> 00:27:37,249
they've had a lot of successes but

604
00:27:41,859 --> 00:27:39,319
remember you know there was Ptolemaic

605
00:27:43,959 --> 00:27:41,869
astronomy the view that the truth went

606
00:27:46,749 --> 00:27:43,969
around the Sun went around the earth

607
00:27:52,589 --> 00:27:46,759
there was absolute space and time there

608
00:27:55,749 --> 00:27:52,599
was a humid area of disease there was no

609
00:28:00,190 --> 00:27:55,759
geology what's the thing I want this nut

610
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:03,220
good thing I'm gonna see Thur make me so

611
00:28:07,690 --> 00:28:05,690
just on theory Russian okay I mean these

612
00:28:09,789 --> 00:28:07,700
were thought of as a well pad they had

613
00:28:12,039 --> 00:28:09,799
good predictions and then and they were

614
00:28:13,450 --> 00:28:12,049
wrong you know they're wrong and so

615
00:28:17,169 --> 00:28:13,460
science even though they can have a

616
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:17,179
consensus can be refuted very easily if

617
00:28:23,110 --> 00:28:20,110
the consensus changes as a result of

618
00:28:24,639 --> 00:28:23,120
more in changing sorts of evidence that

619
00:28:27,310 --> 00:28:24,649
enter into the picture as we go along

620
00:28:29,710 --> 00:28:27,320
alright so so that's the way you know

621
00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:29,720
you can just set aside a first objection

622
00:28:35,799 --> 00:28:32,929
and the second second one is the argues

623
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:35,809
that it is testable the thesis is

624
00:28:40,629 --> 00:28:38,570
testable and confirmable it said but it

625
00:28:46,269 --> 00:28:40,639
hasn't been confirmed and that was put

626
00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:46,279
out by Derek Parfit and his book reasons

627
00:28:54,610 --> 00:28:49,940
in persons and this is jair to yeah yeah

628
00:28:57,250 --> 00:28:54,620
yeah Derek Parfit had a section in that

629
00:29:04,360 --> 00:28:57,260
book that was an Oxford book in 1994 I

630
00:29:07,149 --> 00:29:04,370
think 80 494 not sure he had a section

631
00:29:10,570 --> 00:29:07,159
their number 82 which was what it would

632
00:29:13,269 --> 00:29:10,580
have taken to prove that there were

633
00:29:15,269 --> 00:29:13,279
Cartesian in material substances and

634
00:29:17,860 --> 00:29:15,279
this is where he starts off by saying

635
00:29:19,750 --> 00:29:17,870
some people think that the idea of a

636
00:29:24,399 --> 00:29:19,760
Cartesian and material substance is

637
00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:24,409
absurd that some people claim that it's

638
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:27,110
absurd irrational that I don't agree

639
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:29,210
with that claim and they said because

640
00:29:34,330 --> 00:29:31,730
you could get some good evidence suppose

641
00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:34,340
that you use this lady and then he used

642
00:29:40,810 --> 00:29:36,110
the reincarnation example he said

643
00:29:44,620 --> 00:29:40,820
suppose this lady came up with a story

644
00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:44,630
about remembering that she died 2,000

645
00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:48,190
years earlier and she had a a wrist

646
00:29:53,410 --> 00:29:50,960
bracelet that had two dragons on it and

647
00:29:57,100 --> 00:29:53,420
she buried it near a monolith

648
00:29:59,470 --> 00:29:57,110
and the ground isn't and she had other

649
00:30:02,080 --> 00:29:59,480
details like that and then you went out

650
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:02,090
and you went to the place where she said

651
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:05,570
she buried it with the graphologist and

652
00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:07,370
not a grin you went my place and you

653
00:30:12,730 --> 00:30:11,360
found that in fact you the the equipment

654
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:12,740
that the things were there and

655
00:30:19,180 --> 00:30:15,530
everything else she said was unearthed

656
00:30:21,010 --> 00:30:19,190
in this way that would be scientifically

657
00:30:22,780 --> 00:30:21,020
will be in perfect it's something that

658
00:30:25,870 --> 00:30:22,790
would be predicted by the theory should

659
00:30:29,250 --> 00:30:25,880
and if that all came up if all her

660
00:30:31,330 --> 00:30:29,260
memories these memories are actual

661
00:30:33,070 --> 00:30:31,340
predictions of how you supposed to go

662
00:30:35,470 --> 00:30:33,080
out and confirm them come to round them

663
00:30:38,830 --> 00:30:35,480
for not being quasi memories buffeting

664
00:30:40,210 --> 00:30:38,840
real members so he went on and said you

665
00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:40,220
know so it would be if you got those

666
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:42,320
kinds of cases if there were a large

667
00:30:47,860 --> 00:30:44,570
number of them right and if you couldn't

668
00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:47,870
refute the thesis by some other pieces

669
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:51,110
had the same effect yeah he said you you

670
00:30:55,390 --> 00:30:53,570
would be obliged she said to to believe

671
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:55,400
in reincarnation said of course but what

672
00:30:58,990 --> 00:30:56,930
that would mean is that we would have to

673
00:31:00,700 --> 00:30:59,000
think about memory quite differently it

674
00:31:02,890 --> 00:31:00,710
couldn't be identified with a particular

675
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:02,900
brain state at any given time and I have

676
00:31:08,770 --> 00:31:05,930
to be something that is not associated

677
00:31:12,220 --> 00:31:08,780
with the brain yeah and then he goes on

678
00:31:15,940 --> 00:31:12,230
and says well but do we have that those

679
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:15,950
data facts he said no so and his crate I

680
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:18,770
babe what would satisfy that standard

681
00:31:22,450 --> 00:31:20,210
for him I guess you mentioned was that

682
00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:22,460
if most people were having these neutral

683
00:31:27,550 --> 00:31:24,310
you saw these things all the time right

684
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:27,560
he has insisted that they have a lot of

685
00:31:31,570 --> 00:31:30,170
people doing it and you got something I

686
00:31:33,550 --> 00:31:31,580
said well I think it's too strong a

687
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:33,560
requirement yeah because after all if

688
00:31:38,510 --> 00:31:35,490
you've got ten people who are

689
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:38,520
who have this wonderful story and you

690
00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:40,770
can't refute it why don't you just say

691
00:31:43,820 --> 00:31:42,809
in those ten cases people rien kinda I

692
00:31:46,820 --> 00:31:43,830
don't know where they will do it again

693
00:31:48,980 --> 00:31:46,830
yeah and I'd up but i have no plausible

694
00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:48,990
way to explain this thing so i'm

695
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:51,120
thinking that the skeptical response of

696
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:54,510
course to this would be that well surely

697
00:32:00,620 --> 00:31:58,050
you know if if this was a real

698
00:32:02,299 --> 00:32:00,630
phenomenon let's be more of it we'd yeah

699
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:02,309
we have more at least we'd be able to

700
00:32:07,220 --> 00:32:04,320
gather through science through the

701
00:32:09,140 --> 00:32:07,230
empirical studies more robust evidence

702
00:32:11,330 --> 00:32:09,150
for it well that's what's interesting

703
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:11,340
about this because you should be able to

704
00:32:18,049 --> 00:32:15,210
do it i propose the way in death and

705
00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:18,059
personal survival I just look you just

706
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:21,510
get a group of people like you regress

707
00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:24,090
that he'll claim to have memories of a

708
00:32:30,049 --> 00:32:28,320
certain sort and test them see what

709
00:32:32,620 --> 00:32:30,059
percentage of them I mean it would test

710
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:32,630
them and you know if they claim to be

711
00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:35,370
Napoleon Bonaparte you say will tell me

712
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:37,110
something that only Napoleon would know

713
00:32:42,770 --> 00:32:39,770
right right tell me a lot of stuff and

714
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:42,780
so so you you could test them very

715
00:32:48,169 --> 00:32:46,170
simply or you could get peoples of the

716
00:32:50,390 --> 00:32:48,179
web memories like that yeah and then

717
00:32:52,549 --> 00:32:50,400
some of them as soon as you test them

718
00:32:54,980 --> 00:32:52,559
some will go out sure but there will be

719
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:54,990
a smaller case that have these not only

720
00:32:59,810 --> 00:32:56,970
the memories but they'll have the

721
00:33:03,380 --> 00:32:59,820
acquired skill the language skills of

722
00:33:05,510 --> 00:33:03,390
the former person that they're talking

723
00:33:07,430 --> 00:33:05,520
about isn't that what was para what

724
00:33:09,290 --> 00:33:07,440
reincarnation researchers sort of are

725
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:09,300
doing yeah that's right i do while

726
00:33:14,090 --> 00:33:11,610
they're still trying it's not very well

727
00:33:16,130 --> 00:33:14,100
funded but I here I think this if then

728
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:16,140
so far there was 4,000 cases when I

729
00:33:20,690 --> 00:33:18,210
wrote that book 20 years ago in there

730
00:33:23,090 --> 00:33:20,700
more in Virginia there's another 6,000

731
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:23,100
and you know a lot of people do work at

732
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:26,010
it and it's accumulating fairly strongly

733
00:33:32,299 --> 00:33:30,570
the idea that you can refute it okay I I

734
00:33:34,810 --> 00:33:32,309
love al meter and but interviewed him a

735
00:33:38,540 --> 00:33:34,820
long long time ago but I think he's just

736
00:33:41,260 --> 00:33:38,550
refreshing as a philosopher he's so down

737
00:33:43,909 --> 00:33:41,270
to earth than in some ways but also very

738
00:33:45,740 --> 00:33:43,919
adroit and intellectual and you kind of

739
00:33:48,350 --> 00:33:45,750
get both sides of that so I think that's

740
00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:48,360
great what were the points you really

741
00:33:51,259 --> 00:33:49,200
that

742
00:33:55,789 --> 00:33:51,269
resonated with you from this I think

743
00:33:58,399 --> 00:33:55,799
yeah he it was a pretty sort of strictly

744
00:34:00,740 --> 00:33:58,409
philosophical approach to the topic he

745
00:34:03,710 --> 00:34:00,750
really wasn't discussing any specific

746
00:34:04,879 --> 00:34:03,720
empirical data but I think which is one

747
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:04,889
of the things that I just reserved as a

748
00:34:09,909 --> 00:34:06,570
professional philosopher myself I kind

749
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:09,919
of enjoyed as well and i would say again

750
00:34:15,319 --> 00:34:12,690
similar to the other speakers i think

751
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:15,329
you know he on the most salient aspects

752
00:34:19,550 --> 00:34:17,280
of for me of what he was the sort of a

753
00:34:22,099 --> 00:34:19,560
point that he was making what is that if

754
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:22,109
you try to conceive of consciousness or

755
00:34:28,609 --> 00:34:24,240
mind if you want to call it that in non

756
00:34:30,980 --> 00:34:28,619
physical terms you're not being any less

757
00:34:32,540 --> 00:34:30,990
necessarily scientific than trying to

758
00:34:34,940 --> 00:34:32,550
conceive of mind in physical terms

759
00:34:37,849 --> 00:34:34,950
because reductive materialism or

760
00:34:39,710 --> 00:34:37,859
physicalism is really an philosophical

761
00:34:43,089 --> 00:34:39,720
assumption it's not some kind of an

762
00:34:46,129 --> 00:34:43,099
empirically demonstrated scientific fact

763
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:46,139
and and and that reductive materialism

764
00:34:50,210 --> 00:34:48,050
as well really isn't necessarily

765
00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:50,220
essential to science or to the

766
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:52,079
scientific study of consciousness even

767
00:34:59,200 --> 00:34:55,290
though I think a lot of skeptics seem to

768
00:35:01,550 --> 00:34:59,210
think that it is young and either that

769
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:01,560
materialistic explanations of conscious

770
00:35:06,410 --> 00:35:04,290
experience are really no simpler or less

771
00:35:09,260 --> 00:35:06,420
fraught with logical difficulties and

772
00:35:12,349 --> 00:35:09,270
dualistic explanations as he defined

773
00:35:16,130 --> 00:35:12,359
them are so that for me was an important

774
00:35:18,020 --> 00:35:16,140
thing yeah great I also love the Jane

775
00:35:20,540 --> 00:35:18,030
Goodall reference I think it really

776
00:35:22,849 --> 00:35:20,550
brought home this idea that science

777
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:22,859
can't really be pinned down the way that

778
00:35:28,450 --> 00:35:25,530
scientism often does and his point is

779
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:28,460
just obvious that jane goodall's videos

780
00:35:33,890 --> 00:35:31,770
changed science change the scientific

781
00:35:35,870 --> 00:35:33,900
consensus not in a way that we normally

782
00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:35,880
think of as testable or anything like

783
00:35:40,700 --> 00:35:37,609
that but just by making it self-evident

784
00:35:43,370 --> 00:35:40,710
yeah yeah absolutely um and that's again

785
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:43,380
I suppose happened over and over again

786
00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:46,530
in in science so that they're trying to

787
00:35:53,329 --> 00:35:49,380
define and trying to make the claim

788
00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:53,339
somehow on that the status of current

789
00:35:59,900 --> 00:35:56,480
science is this all-encompassing

790
00:36:02,510 --> 00:35:59,910
description of the event and total

791
00:36:03,130 --> 00:36:02,520
description of wave of the way reality

792
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:03,140
must

793
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:05,690
e is if you look at the history of

794
00:36:11,410 --> 00:36:08,690
science sort of an obviously unfounded

795
00:36:13,780 --> 00:36:11,420
claim right okay then finally let's get

796
00:36:15,220 --> 00:36:13,790
to Stanley critter tell us a little bit

797
00:36:17,620 --> 00:36:15,230
first for folks who don't know who

798
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:17,630
Stanley grip nur is yeah well yes

799
00:36:22,930 --> 00:36:20,210
Stanley critter of course I think most

800
00:36:24,730 --> 00:36:22,940
people are even not you not even people

801
00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:24,740
within the field of psychology know is

802
00:36:29,110 --> 00:36:27,320
one of these sort of preeminent figures

803
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:29,120
that sort of spans disciplines across

804
00:36:35,740 --> 00:36:32,330
disciplines in in many areas of

805
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:35,750
psychology and he's just published all

806
00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:38,000
kinds of ground and done all those all

807
00:36:41,350 --> 00:36:39,440
kinds of groundbreaking work and done

808
00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:41,360
all kinds of groundbreaking research for

809
00:36:48,070 --> 00:36:45,710
four decades now and is really you know

810
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:48,080
almost a celebrity figure and what he

811
00:36:53,230 --> 00:36:51,170
did was actually organized this this

812
00:36:56,110 --> 00:36:53,240
panel I believe and he chaired the panel

813
00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:56,120
on although he did not present it

814
00:37:01,420 --> 00:36:58,130
present any papers in it but of course

815
00:37:03,430 --> 00:37:01,430
I'm since the idea for it was at least

816
00:37:06,220 --> 00:37:03,440
in part his conception I wanted to try

817
00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:06,230
to get his sort of overall general

818
00:37:11,710 --> 00:37:09,230
perspective on what he thought the whole

819
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:11,720
session conveyed great let's play that

820
00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:17,290
clip most scientists in other words tend

821
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:19,760
to be materialists and not and believe

822
00:37:25,450 --> 00:37:22,160
that that consciousness is biologically

823
00:37:29,590 --> 00:37:25,460
based whereas most of the wider for the

824
00:37:32,410 --> 00:37:29,600
wider public does not and you're my life

825
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:32,420
sense from reading your work and and

826
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:34,910
things about you as that is that your

827
00:37:40,270 --> 00:37:38,000
tone seems to be in a really responsible

828
00:37:42,789 --> 00:37:40,280
rigorous sort of sense cautiously

829
00:37:44,679 --> 00:37:42,799
optimistic regarding

830
00:37:48,519 --> 00:37:44,689
the possibility of non-physical

831
00:37:50,499 --> 00:37:48,529
consciousness is that there yes you

832
00:37:52,539 --> 00:37:50,509
don't seem like you're not willing to as

833
00:37:54,669 --> 00:37:52,549
I guess as a scientist and a critical

834
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:54,679
thinker to make up your mind completely

835
00:37:59,799 --> 00:37:57,170
but you seem to think that the evidence

836
00:38:02,169 --> 00:37:59,809
would you say that the evidence that you

837
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:02,179
can on the whole tends to support that

838
00:38:07,199 --> 00:38:04,910
notion I would say so although I remain

839
00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:07,209
agnostic on most of these issues

840
00:38:13,630 --> 00:38:11,689
disperse and I yes I for better or for

841
00:38:16,929 --> 00:38:13,640
worse i don't think that you could call

842
00:38:19,209 --> 00:38:16,939
me a believer a much of anything yeah so

843
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:19,219
i believe i read that sup there a quote

844
00:38:26,799 --> 00:38:24,079
i guess from you via of that fascinating

845
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:26,809
article in the san francisco good about

846
00:38:31,019 --> 00:38:28,880
your life that career is fascinating

847
00:38:33,549 --> 00:38:31,029
yeah i don't know how they got

848
00:38:36,370 --> 00:38:33,559
quotations from ray hyman and james r

849
00:38:38,259 --> 00:38:36,380
yeah yeah but they did a my real life

850
00:38:39,910 --> 00:38:38,269
but they had to say yeah yeah you're

851
00:38:42,429 --> 00:38:39,920
they're big fans apparently which which

852
00:38:44,859 --> 00:38:42,439
one would not necessarily expect but i

853
00:38:46,839 --> 00:38:44,869
guess that testifies to your your

854
00:38:49,209 --> 00:38:46,849
ability to command the respect as that

855
00:38:51,939 --> 00:38:49,219
article pointed out of both again a

856
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:51,949
highly i guess it you'll excuse the

857
00:38:57,219 --> 00:38:54,890
term-- skeptical materialists as well as

858
00:38:59,349 --> 00:38:57,229
you know as well established

859
00:39:01,569 --> 00:38:59,359
parapsychological researchers who well

860
00:39:03,489 --> 00:39:01,579
even they make they make a point they

861
00:39:07,209 --> 00:39:03,499
make a very good point and I think that

862
00:39:09,699 --> 00:39:07,219
that's part of the dialogue that is that

863
00:39:12,189 --> 00:39:09,709
that is so badly needed today yeah which

864
00:39:14,259 --> 00:39:12,199
you certainly encourage one of the

865
00:39:16,479 --> 00:39:14,269
things speaking of which we have you

866
00:39:19,419 --> 00:39:16,489
know reading about so many of your sort

867
00:39:21,669 --> 00:39:19,429
of personal experiences not necessarily

868
00:39:23,439 --> 00:39:21,679
in the laboratory or via experiments

869
00:39:25,949 --> 00:39:23,449
some of which though are really

870
00:39:28,359 --> 00:39:25,959
fascinating like the maimonides hospital

871
00:39:33,699 --> 00:39:28,369
dream lab I guess it was good

872
00:39:35,150 --> 00:39:33,709
experiments seem like like very powerful

873
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:35,160
powerful evidence

874
00:39:40,730 --> 00:39:37,890
oh yeah for the possibility of a non

875
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:40,740
material consciousness but some of these

876
00:39:45,410 --> 00:39:43,710
other things I was reading about where

877
00:39:48,220 --> 00:39:45,420
you were enough where you're in other

878
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:48,230
cultures and and whether it was Brazil

879
00:39:56,660 --> 00:39:52,800
where this a medium of some sort was was

880
00:40:00,830 --> 00:39:56,670
produced teleporting stones yeah and and

881
00:40:02,930 --> 00:40:00,840
not physical objects would I mean those

882
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:02,940
are those are what seemed to me to be

883
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:06,000
incredible experiences to have and would

884
00:40:13,460 --> 00:40:08,490
it seems to me if I had them if I was

885
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:13,470
you to make me I guess I don't know but

886
00:40:16,610 --> 00:40:15,090
believer is that is the right term

887
00:40:19,340 --> 00:40:16,620
because I guess you're not sure what it

888
00:40:21,110 --> 00:40:19,350
is you believe in but certainly they

889
00:40:27,470 --> 00:40:21,120
would convince me that there must be

890
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:27,480
more to the makeup of the substance of

891
00:40:32,270 --> 00:40:30,210
reality as we as we understand it then

892
00:40:34,670 --> 00:40:32,280
the physical sciences can provide us

893
00:40:37,970 --> 00:40:34,680
with is that at the present time yeah

894
00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:37,980
yes that's that's a very good way to put

895
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:44,990
these personal experiences indicate to

896
00:40:52,250 --> 00:40:50,130
me that there are still unfilled gaps in

897
00:40:55,250 --> 00:40:52,260
terms of our understanding of the

898
00:40:57,950 --> 00:40:55,260
universe and maybe even in terms of the

899
00:41:00,650 --> 00:40:57,960
basic assumptions we have about the

900
00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:00,660
nature of the universe and and you tend

901
00:41:05,410 --> 00:41:03,240
them to think that there is at least as

902
00:41:07,970 --> 00:41:05,420
science currently defines the term

903
00:41:09,950 --> 00:41:07,980
physical or material which itself is I

904
00:41:11,780 --> 00:41:09,960
guess problematic but any problem yeah

905
00:41:15,610 --> 00:41:11,790
in terms of the way science currently

906
00:41:18,260 --> 00:41:15,620
defines the term you would say that then

907
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:18,270
that's wrong or at least it's too

908
00:41:21,650 --> 00:41:20,250
reductive for you to be Congress I would

909
00:41:24,410 --> 00:41:21,660
not use the word right or wrong good

910
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:24,420
heavens I would simply say it's

911
00:41:28,970 --> 00:41:27,210
incomplete or too reductive and keep in

912
00:41:32,330 --> 00:41:28,980
mind you're using terms that I don't use

913
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:32,340
myself sure sure yeah I don't want to

914
00:41:39,350 --> 00:41:35,520
cheat so what are you looking to what do

915
00:41:43,420 --> 00:41:39,360
you attribute the big discrepancy

916
00:41:46,790 --> 00:41:43,430
between pretty valid you know I mean I

917
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:46,800
that valid researchers like say a Dean

918
00:41:52,690 --> 00:41:49,170
Radin on one hand on one end of the

919
00:41:57,020 --> 00:41:52,700
spectrum who says there's clear evidence

920
00:41:58,670 --> 00:41:57,030
for a non non physical dimension of

921
00:42:01,640 --> 00:41:58,680
consciousness in the universe and the

922
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:01,650
way it operates in its dynamics and on

923
00:42:05,390 --> 00:42:03,450
the other end of the spectrum say

924
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:05,400
Richard Wiseman was a prominent

925
00:42:10,610 --> 00:42:08,010
researcher that his name comes to mind

926
00:42:12,860 --> 00:42:10,620
and is readily recognized who says

927
00:42:14,570 --> 00:42:12,870
there's absolutely none you know and

928
00:42:17,150 --> 00:42:14,580
they're both looking at the same data

929
00:42:20,570 --> 00:42:17,160
they have conducted right there most

930
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:20,580
part alive well what what do we what we

931
00:42:24,470 --> 00:42:23,130
tribute that well I say this is this

932
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:24,480
interesting this is an interesting

933
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:29,250
dialogue at say intellectual dance and I

934
00:42:33,500 --> 00:42:31,050
follow up with a great interest and

935
00:42:35,990 --> 00:42:33,510
let's see where it leads fair enough and

936
00:42:37,580 --> 00:42:36,000
then on the on the spectrum yourself you

937
00:42:42,810 --> 00:42:37,590
had to place yourself on the spectrum

938
00:42:45,090 --> 00:42:42,820
between mind as entirely physical

939
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:45,100
on one end and perhaps on the other end

940
00:42:50,490 --> 00:42:48,130
idealism or mind as the fundamental

941
00:42:52,020 --> 00:42:50,500
substrate perhaps of everything where

942
00:42:54,750 --> 00:42:52,030
would you put yourself on it would you I

943
00:42:55,980 --> 00:42:54,760
acted earlier an article about that in

944
00:42:59,850 --> 00:42:55,990
the international journal of

945
00:43:03,270 --> 00:42:59,860
transpersonal studies and I don't really

946
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:03,280
see this as amenable to a spectrum at

947
00:43:08,550 --> 00:43:06,730
all I see it more as a system I think

948
00:43:12,180 --> 00:43:08,560
that what we call mind what we call

949
00:43:16,410 --> 00:43:12,190
manner are constantly interacting and

950
00:43:18,870 --> 00:43:16,420
sometimes the interaction seems to go

951
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:18,880
one way sometimes the interaction seems

952
00:43:24,780 --> 00:43:22,810
to go another way just like sometimes

953
00:43:29,780 --> 00:43:24,790
there's a wave and sometimes they're a

954
00:43:33,930 --> 00:43:29,790
particle and yeah sometimes there is e

955
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:33,940
in the e m squared sometimes there's em

956
00:43:40,740 --> 00:43:36,250
in the EMM square root that becomes more

957
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:40,750
obvious to the odds that you mention it

958
00:43:47,250 --> 00:43:44,530
do you think there are promising there's

959
00:43:51,510 --> 00:43:47,260
promising work being done in quantum

960
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:51,520
physics that might yield some positive

961
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:54,510
results for explaining at least

962
00:44:00,990 --> 00:43:58,090
parapsychological phenomena that that

963
00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:01,000
isn't necessary in a strictly material

964
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:03,730
or non material well yes I think there's

965
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:07,810
a promising work not being a physicist I

966
00:44:13,620 --> 00:44:11,050
would hesitate to in any way but make

967
00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:13,630
myself knowledgeable enough to render a

968
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:16,960
verdict I think that too many people who

969
00:44:22,500 --> 00:44:20,170
are not physicists jump on the quantum

970
00:44:24,540 --> 00:44:22,510
physics bandwagon and say well this is

971
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:24,550
going to be the key that unravels the

972
00:44:30,470 --> 00:44:27,970
mysteries maybe it will but I'd have to

973
00:44:34,530 --> 00:44:30,480
know a lot more about coffin physics to

974
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:34,540
make that leap of faith well for all we

975
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:38,050
know that will come from anthropology we

976
00:44:44,670 --> 00:44:41,520
might find some remote tribe that has

977
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:44,680
what we call psychic abilities pretty

978
00:44:49,780 --> 00:44:47,290
much under control have repeated them

979
00:44:53,770 --> 00:44:49,790
can demonstrate them to outsiders

980
00:44:55,810 --> 00:44:53,780
and that might be even more convincing

981
00:44:58,480 --> 00:44:55,820
than anything that quantum physics comes

982
00:45:00,670 --> 00:44:58,490
up with yeah so you never know we're

983
00:45:02,650 --> 00:45:00,680
that right we're the breakthroughs and

984
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:02,660
science are going to come from sure and

985
00:45:10,950 --> 00:45:05,090
you think science should listen to more

986
00:45:18,070 --> 00:45:14,170
understandings of consciousness that

987
00:45:19,750 --> 00:45:18,080
come to us from other traditions say

988
00:45:20,860 --> 00:45:19,760
spiritual traditions wisdom tours or

989
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:20,870
whatever you want to call them religious

990
00:45:24,010 --> 00:45:22,610
traditions and things like that well I

991
00:45:25,660 --> 00:45:24,020
think there's something to be learned

992
00:45:27,730 --> 00:45:25,670
from all of these traditions you

993
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:27,740
certainly have guess that's what I think

994
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:33,170
that I think again consciousness is a

995
00:45:38,380 --> 00:45:36,290
term I really don't like to use because

996
00:45:40,990 --> 00:45:38,390
it's overused it means different things

997
00:45:49,150 --> 00:45:41,000
to different people

998
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:49,160
nonetheless there are Eastern concepts

999
00:45:55,290 --> 00:45:52,010
that don't have a mind Bob mind brain

1000
00:45:58,840 --> 00:45:55,300
problem yeah a remind by the problem

1001
00:46:02,200 --> 00:45:58,850
there even Latin American concepts that

1002
00:46:06,970 --> 00:46:02,210
are ultra-sophisticated their Navajo and

1003
00:46:11,230 --> 00:46:06,980
other Native American concepts Iroquois

1004
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:11,240
concepts blacked with concepts that you

1005
00:46:15,850 --> 00:46:13,850
can look at a certain away and say well

1006
00:46:19,180 --> 00:46:15,860
this is a cotton physics is talking

1007
00:46:21,220 --> 00:46:19,190
about so indigenous people have been

1008
00:46:23,410 --> 00:46:21,230
wrestling with trying to explain the

1009
00:46:24,700 --> 00:46:23,420
universe some of them have come up with

1010
00:46:29,830 --> 00:46:24,710
ideas that are really pretty

1011
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:29,840
sophisticated so you know given the time

1012
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:32,690
and interest that one has available one

1013
00:46:35,980 --> 00:46:34,490
can examine the number of different

1014
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:35,990
traditions and see if there's anything

1015
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:38,450
there that make sense yeah and given

1016
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:40,850
that the panorama of the world views

1017
00:46:46,540 --> 00:46:42,850
obviously that you've been exposed to

1018
00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:46,550
throughout your career what what what

1019
00:46:52,900 --> 00:46:49,310
when when Stanley Crippler shuffles off

1020
00:46:57,310 --> 00:46:52,910
this mortal coil what do you anticipate

1021
00:46:59,770 --> 00:46:57,320
what dreams will come do you think do

1022
00:47:04,600 --> 00:46:59,780
you what do you expect will happen I

1023
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:04,610
expect to be surprised okay and nothing

1024
00:47:11,470 --> 00:47:06,890
but but to continue or not to continual

1025
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:11,480
Stanley clearly a surprise I invited

1026
00:47:15,330 --> 00:47:12,530
everything you've seen you're not

1027
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:15,340
convinced of anything I think that I

1028
00:47:21,550 --> 00:47:18,170
would have to say that Stanley krypter

1029
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:21,560
per se is a social construct and as the

1030
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:24,290
result of a certain historical

1031
00:47:31,470 --> 00:47:29,210
confluence of of influences and one

1032
00:47:34,270 --> 00:47:31,480
would not expect that same social

1033
00:47:35,450 --> 00:47:34,280
constructor that same confluence to

1034
00:47:38,110 --> 00:47:35,460
exist

1035
00:47:41,060 --> 00:47:38,120
in another dimension in the same way

1036
00:47:43,820 --> 00:47:41,070
maybe in a different way but not in the

1037
00:47:46,430 --> 00:47:43,830
same way that makes sense so even in

1038
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:46,440
cases of reincarnation where people sort

1039
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:48,930
of retain memories of another unified

1040
00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:50,610
personality as they do but they don't

1041
00:47:57,260 --> 00:47:53,520
retain all of the memories they retain

1042
00:47:59,150 --> 00:47:57,270
bits and pieces and who knows that might

1043
00:48:01,430 --> 00:47:59,160
be the least important part of their

1044
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:01,440
psyche the more important part of their

1045
00:48:10,660 --> 00:48:05,250
psyche might be off having fun going to

1046
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:13,640
these more mundane memories remain

1047
00:48:21,710 --> 00:48:16,410
behind sort of to work themselves

1048
00:48:24,500 --> 00:48:21,720
through when the and even maybe the play

1049
00:48:28,220 --> 00:48:24,510
a joke on whatever survived yeah maybe

1050
00:48:30,890 --> 00:48:28,230
so okay this one was the hardest one for

1051
00:48:32,450 --> 00:48:30,900
me to listen to just an in a couple of a

1052
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:32,460
couple of ways where I think that

1053
00:48:38,990 --> 00:48:35,850
there's just a real logical breakdown in

1054
00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:39,000
terms of this whole agnosticism and why

1055
00:48:43,550 --> 00:48:41,310
we have to be agnostic and science is

1056
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:43,560
agnostic and I think that's just it's

1057
00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:45,570
just so obviously transparent and it's

1058
00:48:49,550 --> 00:48:47,310
really just playing to the status quo

1059
00:48:51,650 --> 00:48:49,560
and not wanting to ruffle feathers to me

1060
00:48:53,690 --> 00:48:51,660
it seems that science is always changing

1061
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:53,700
and it's always about where we're at now

1062
00:48:59,150 --> 00:48:56,610
I mean this idea that where it might go

1063
00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:59,160
or we can't go that we're always where

1064
00:49:03,470 --> 00:49:01,680
we are so we're always evaluate the best

1065
00:49:05,950 --> 00:49:03,480
data we have coming to the breast

1066
00:49:08,420 --> 00:49:05,960
conclusion we have Without Really

1067
00:49:10,490 --> 00:49:08,430
deference to what happened before or

1068
00:49:12,380 --> 00:49:10,500
what might happen in the future it seems

1069
00:49:15,290 --> 00:49:12,390
silly and for a guy as prominent as

1070
00:49:17,540 --> 00:49:15,300
crypt nur to keep kind of throwing this

1071
00:49:19,790 --> 00:49:17,550
stuff out there I mean it's no wonder

1072
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:19,800
that ray hyman and James Randi Lapid

1073
00:49:26,290 --> 00:49:23,730
because it's a silliness yeah I noticed

1074
00:49:29,330 --> 00:49:26,300
you always seem to find Stanwyck rittner

1075
00:49:31,420 --> 00:49:29,340
sort of simultaneously provocatively

1076
00:49:34,070 --> 00:49:31,430
visionary but also frustratingly

1077
00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:34,080
non-committal I I at least I get that

1078
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:36,000
impression from you when you when you

1079
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:38,490
hear his stuff and maybe some other guys

1080
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:44,130
like him I I got to admit I'm sort of at

1081
00:49:48,530 --> 00:49:45,810
least I felt that way about I'm I don't

1082
00:49:49,609 --> 00:49:48,540
know maybe I'm imputing my um sort of

1083
00:49:54,140 --> 00:49:49,619
some of my frustrate

1084
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:54,150
on to you but I actually after listening

1085
00:49:58,460 --> 00:49:56,640
to him a lot I saw him not only at this

1086
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:58,470
conference but then the next week at the

1087
00:50:02,839 --> 00:50:00,240
pass Psychological Association

1088
00:50:05,870 --> 00:50:02,849
conference at which they were honoring

1089
00:50:08,930 --> 00:50:05,880
his life achievements in that branch of

1090
00:50:12,380 --> 00:50:08,940
psychology and and I got to admit my

1091
00:50:14,210 --> 00:50:12,390
opinion to some extent changed I got

1092
00:50:18,170 --> 00:50:14,220
much more sympathetic I think to the

1093
00:50:20,599 --> 00:50:18,180
sort of a Stanley Crippler worldview in

1094
00:50:23,690 --> 00:50:20,609
so far as he has one I think okay so

1095
00:50:25,819 --> 00:50:23,700
maybe so so anyways I think what we have

1096
00:50:29,029 --> 00:50:25,829
here rich is a really nice cross-section

1097
00:50:31,009 --> 00:50:29,039
of some different views and obviously

1098
00:50:33,079 --> 00:50:31,019
coming from the American psychology

1099
00:50:35,089 --> 00:50:33,089
Association conference it adds an

1100
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:35,099
interesting flavor to it doesn't it as

1101
00:50:38,809 --> 00:50:37,170
you mentioned at the beginning so this

1102
00:50:40,999 --> 00:50:38,819
has been great any final thoughts on

1103
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:41,009
questions that you'd like to see us

1104
00:50:45,739 --> 00:50:43,170
maybe try and tackle in the forum

1105
00:50:49,009 --> 00:50:45,749
regarding these series of interviews I

1106
00:50:52,609 --> 00:50:49,019
think Stanley critters interview to some

1107
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:52,619
extent maybe sort of summarized where

1108
00:50:56,900 --> 00:50:54,960
the other ones might be coming from or

1109
00:50:58,249 --> 00:50:56,910
at least it gave every gave a sort of

1110
00:50:59,900 --> 00:50:58,259
this broad sort of philosophical

1111
00:51:03,470 --> 00:50:59,910
framework maybe to put them in and I

1112
00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:03,480
think maybe in so far as he may have

1113
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:06,480
raised some objections I'm sort of in

1114
00:51:11,450 --> 00:51:08,249
your mind and other people's minds I

1115
00:51:13,579 --> 00:51:11,460
think it might be a prayer might be a

1116
00:51:16,579 --> 00:51:13,589
guy you know prudent to consider the

1117
00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:16,589
possibility that maybe a radically sort

1118
00:51:25,249 --> 00:51:21,049
of pragmatic out look like his is

1119
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:25,259
perhaps key to keeping an open mind and

1120
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:29,970
not not allowing ourselves to slide from

1121
00:51:34,069 --> 00:51:31,680
from the sort of the dogmatism of

1122
00:51:36,799 --> 00:51:34,079
reductive materialism to sort of another

1123
00:51:38,900 --> 00:51:36,809
at least I insofar as a rudimentary

1124
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:38,910
intellect like myself can interpret what

1125
00:51:46,359 --> 00:51:42,930
he's where he's coming from I think you

1126
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:46,369
know what he's trying to do is to avoid

1127
00:51:52,970 --> 00:51:49,650
obviously from the dogmatic materialist

1128
00:51:54,890 --> 00:51:52,980
view of consciousness and nature for

1129
00:51:58,190 --> 00:51:54,900
that matter but he is also

1130
00:52:00,999 --> 00:51:58,200
simultaneously trying to be responsible

1131
00:52:02,810 --> 00:52:01,009
enough not to jump to any premature

1132
00:52:04,310 --> 00:52:02,820
conclusions I

1133
00:52:06,860 --> 00:52:04,320
I don't know if that's if that makes any

1134
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:06,870
sense but that's great rich and I think

1135
00:52:10,910 --> 00:52:08,370
that will make for a very very

1136
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:10,920
interesting discussion that we can all

1137
00:52:16,180 --> 00:52:13,290
have so thanks again for joining us and

1138
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:16,190
we'll see you soon to talk about the

1139
00:52:20,180 --> 00:52:18,450
parapsychology Association conference in

1140
00:52:22,150 --> 00:52:20,190
your interviews from that so thanks rich

1141
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:22,160
thank you we really appreciate it thanks

1142
00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:24,690
thanks again to dr. Richard Grieco for

1143
00:52:28,850 --> 00:52:26,640
joining me today on skeptic oh if you'd

1144
00:52:31,250 --> 00:52:28,860
like more information about this show or

1145
00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:31,260
any of our previous shows please visit

1146
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:34,710
the skeptical website it's at sk-ii pti

1147
00:52:40,610 --> 00:52:37,770
k oh you'll also find there a link to

1148
00:52:42,770 --> 00:52:40,620
all our previous shows an email Facebook

1149
00:52:44,990 --> 00:52:42,780
link to me and I'll link to our forum

1150
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:45,000
where you can join in and discuss with

1151
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:48,090
rich and I the topics that we brought up

1152
00:52:52,130 --> 00:52:50,130
near the end of the show well that's

1153
00:52:54,110 --> 00:52:52,140
going to do it for today I have a number

1154
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:54,120
of interesting shows coming up please

1155
00:52:59,579 --> 00:52:56,160
stay tuned for all of that and until